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Top poker player offers a radical rethink on when to exit a trade

I have a problem in my day trading …

If I walk away from my screens, my automated systems will manage trades for me just fine. But if I’m sat at my desk, I want to actively day trade and eek a bit more from every setup.

That shouldn’t be an issue. I like to think that I have some know-how to do that.

But the problem is that I get paralysed.

Here’s a glimpse into the internal dialogue:

  • I liked the initial setup and I want to be right
  • If I change the plan now, it shows bad discipline
  • And I don’t want to be wrong
  • If I take profits early, it’ll negatively impact on my reward:risk ratios
  • And I want to be right
  • If I cut my losses, I’m not giving my trade room to breathe
  • And did I mention that I want to be right?

Back in the 1970s, psychologists noted that people get entrapped in things that we’ve started, even when it’s very clear that they aren’t going well.

It’s hardwired into us. Perhaps it’s optimism … stubbornness … an urge to be proved right … or all three.

But it gets us into all kinds of trouble.

Annie Duke, the ex-pro poker player (who is still in the top-5 female earners at poker, despite having retired in 2019) explains that professional players are significantly more likely to fold than amateurs when dealt a weak hand.

They are great at quitting.

In contrast, amateurs often have a bias against giving up, viewing it as a sign of failure. We should have grit and determination, right? That’s the stuff that gets us to stick with worthwhile activities that are difficult. But it’s also the stuff that gets us stuck in dead-end jobs … toxic relationships … and bum trades.

The art of quitting

So, how do I know when to quit?

When we’re in the thick of it, our decision-making gets skewed.

Duke uses Mount Everest to demonstrate this …

Mountaineers have a turnaround time when summiting Everest. If you haven’t reached the top by 2pm, you need to turnaround. Otherwise you’ll be too late to descend safely (8 times more climbers die on the way down than the way up). By having this rule in place, it should take the decision-making out of the process of turning back.

But books have been written, and Hollywood blockbusters made about the people who failed to make the right decision to quit at this point – famously leading to the 1996 disaster on the mountain.

Little is written about the people who did make the right choice. These are the ‘quitters’ – and culturally we tend not to have much time for these people who actually made a very difficult decision.

This is Duke’s point – we shouldn’t view quitting with a negative bias. A lot of the time, it’s about taking the hard decisions and facing up to reality.

So, how do I incorporate ‘turnaround time’ logic into my trading?

The task is: to be able to reevaluate my position throughout the trade, but not be driven by the emotions that can cloud my judgement when I’ve got cash at risk.

Here are the issues that crop up most often:

  • The price hasn’t behaved the way I expected, or I’ve noticed other factors that could be at play that perhaps I missed or undervalued at the beginning of the trade.
  • It’s taking a very long time for the trade to play out and the short-term signal I used for an entry feels completely insignificant 2 hours down the line.
  • I’m very close to my profit target, so I don’t want to risk the profits I’ve made so far, so prefer to take profits early.

Scenario 1

Let’s say that my trade on a 5-minute chart has been open for 2 hours. This is much longer than I expect. Rather than hit my target, the price has been stuck in a sideways pattern, struggling to move through a consolidation around my entry level. I’m currently showing a small loss. Should I cut and run?

Scenario 2

This time, my trade has almost reached my target, but is now moving sideways. I’m 33 pips in profit, towards a target of 35 pips. Should I just take the £330 profit I’m showing? Hold tight, risk the price moving to my stop loss, more than 60 pips away, for the sake of an extra £20 profit? Or should I move up my stop loss?

These situations crop up again and again in trading, so it shouldn’t be difficult to put a constructive plan in place that allows me to evaluate trades on the hoof – without worrying that it means I lack discipline and will be sent to the purgatory of weak-willed traders.

Setting Turnaround times

Just like the Everest climbers (although from the comfort of my chair!) I’m using time as the trigger for a reevaluation. I have a rough idea of how long my trades run for, so – if a trade is still open after, say 1 hour, I can allow myself to think about a change of plan.

If we’re going to properly re-evaluate our trades, we need to give continuing and quitting at equal seat at the negotiations.

Don’t fall into the sunk-cost trap, which tells us that “I’m down on this trade, so I need to give it a chance to recover, otherwise I’ve wasted that lost capital” … or “I’ve waiting this long with my money on the table, so I should keep leaving it at risk in the market until the trade concludes.”

Sunk cost is the trap that keeps us entrapped – silence those voices.

Instead, try to look fresh at the market and decide if you want to be in this trade or not. Bear in mind that making early exits will affect your reward:risk ratio. Taking profits early might dent your reward, but could boost your success rate. Cutting losses early, could reduce your risk levels, but your success rate could suffer. It’s a balancing act – so keep an eye on the data in your trading journal to make sure you’re improving your results, not hurting them.

Looking at those two scenarios above, it feels like an easy call. I’d close out both trades. Scenario A is a bum trade – cut losses and be ready for the next opportunity. Scenario B is not worth risking my capital for an extra £20 – take the money.

If this wild lack of discipline is making you a little uncomfortable … great!

It makes me uncomfortable too!

But I’m learning to embrace the art of quitting, evaluating my trades with a clear mind, and not being afraid to make timely decisions for better results.

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4 comments

  • Hi guys, apparently I’m somewhere between the two of you, and I’ve also been trading for decades.

    Scenario 2 I’d happily close out, because the trade has been successful (even if only 90% so), and I’d be keen to get it in the bag and free myself up for planning the next trade, The only situation where I’d keep it open is if there’s a decent chance that the next trade will be to open it again, in which case let’s save ourselves the in-out transaction costs.

    Scenario 1 I’d let run a little longer. I’ve paid money to get into the trade, and maybe it hasn’t completely lost its original raison d’etre. It’s still close to where I jumped in, and if I’m going to have to cut it, I’d prefer to do so at a small profit rather than a small loss, because we’re sometimes judged by our win/loss ratio. So I’d give this one a little more time to make its mind up, and only cut when either it’s made it into a small profit, or it’s started to move off in the wrong direction.

    • A
      Mark Rose

      Thanks for the comments Phil. It’s really useful to bounce these ideas around and challenge our ways of thinking

  • Jon Seddon

    Hi Mark – thanks for the article which makes very interesting reading but one thing leapt out at me as a big difference between poker at managing an existing trade. In poker you are being forced to either fold (quit) or increase your value a risk based on the perceived strength of your hand. This of course can happen numerous times and by a potentially unlimited amount just in one round. So the importance of knowing when to quit is absolutely critical. This is NOT the case in trading where (in the absence of doubling down) the value at risk remains constant within s single position so the importance of knowing if or when to quit is far less important.
    I have been trading for decades and only a couple of years ago I came to the conclusion that in scenario 1 & 2 the answer is: LEAVE THE TRADE TO CLOSE AUTOMATICALLY ACCORDING TO YOUR ORIGINAL PLAN.
    The REASONS are:
    Worrying about when to close a trade is all about focusing on the trade itself as opposed your long term trading performance. If your set up and exit strategy is sound it will deliver long term profits. The long-term profitability of your strategy is very unlikely to benefit from micro managing trades that are slow to reach their target or stop.
    Worrying about when to close a trade is extremely stressful especially if a trade moves in and out of profit several times before closing.
    In scenario 1 imagine that you closed at a small loss and then the trade proceeds to travel to the original target. That’s the perfect scenario to trigger tilt and revenge trading with almost certain negative outcomes.
    Managing trades according to market conditions is the perfect environment for overthinking. My solution to this is to leave the screen as soon as the trade is placed and set alarms to call me back when the trade has closed. This is hugely beneficial as it frees up valuable non-screen staring time and removes a large amount of stress from the trading day.

    • A
      Traders Bulletin

      Thanks for your feedback Jon – lots to think about there. I’m currently recording videos for my Bread & Butter Trader course, which involves me watching my trades considerably more than I would normally, and it’s definitely leading to overthinking!

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